Agreeing with Andrew Jefford

OMG! He's doing his job. Can't wait for next issue of Decanter to see if he backtracks? And I think his writing sucks, but hey that's aesthetics for ya 🙂

F***ing great link!

Cheers

j

terroir is a contentious subject with Oz wine, considering 80% of wine produced here is done so by Fosters, Hardy's, Orlando and Casella who all follow a very one dimensional view to making wine; the pretty much listen to the bean counters and no the viticulturists.
I know this for fact for last year I helped process Casella's and Hardies yarra valley fruit due to phylloxera. not once did i speak with a wine maker about style or vineyard manager about fruit quality. instead i had an xcel document from both HQ's with exact quantities of additives to be made to each batch.
what made it interesting was that the Hardies spreadsheet had a contact name and number for any questions. so i gave it a bell and the person on the other end of the line was from the finacial controllers office; he told me that if i was to use anymore thatn the quantities listed, it was to come out of the wineries expense, not Hardies.
i believe that these big guys have no idea about terroir, and with so much competition out there, terroir will be for those producers who have big $$$$$ on their wines.

Wow.

What a sad state of affairs for what was once a proud Australian wine company (Hardys that is).

What's more sad is that great winemakers like Fran Austin, Ed Carr et al, have to work in that sort of environment.

Tim-

Sad to hear your experiences and thank you for sharing. Fosters run Seppelt. Now I've heard that the St Peters Shiraz has grapes sourced from other than the the St Peters vineyard…but I think the wine speaks of a place. Same with the Drumborg Reisling.

So, I'm wondering (not attacking, just wondering) what is your definition of terroir?

I dislike Fosters and Constellation immensely and I think they have no regard for terroir only for $, but I fear those who work for them out of necessity are being tarred & feathered wit the same brush without further clarification.

It's easy to attack Fosters & Constellation. Who apart from a Fosters rep or WBM is gonna stop you. I ask for more. Comitted viticulturalists work for these companies, they have to find jobs & outlets for their expertise. They may not be listened to at the corporate level, but does that mean they have no importance? Did you have no importance when you worked for them? I am very interested.

cheers

j

Jeez AG, you've opened a big can of worms here – Andrew Jefford – I hope not too many South Australian winemakers are reading…

I agree with Andrew Jefford that more site specific Australian wines which speak of a place of origin are beneficial to the future of Australian wines; but where I disagree with him (here for now) is how he continues to liken great Australian wines to those of Europe:- i.e "this cabernet is very Bordeaux like, or how a chardonnay may mirror Mersault or this shiraz is like great Hermitage…."

If Andrew wants Australian wines to TRULY reflect UNIQUE terroir then they must reflect the AUSTRALIAN conditions in which they are grown. Constantly comparing them to their Old World counterparts, which he does all the time, is not helping the cause, or expressing unique conditions. If these wines are to be truly Australian (which there is already a copious amount of out there) then they must stand as proudly Australian in their own right. It is our own unique characteristics which must be further defined, not a continual likeness to others….

Dang Australia makes brilliant, undervalued wines across a myriad of styles.

Sorry AG but I'm just very passionate about Australian wine, its sustainability and its future.

I agree with Tim about how the 3 big companies consider their profit margin first. His tale might explain why Yarra Burn hasn't exactly set the world on fire….Foster's much publicised recent sell offs of some significant vineyards (and their future intentions) – is a fine example of company first, viticulturalist last.

I too am very interested in hearing Tim's response to Jeremy…

All the same, there is a good amount of focused, intelligent and forward thinking winemakers working within these companies – Fran Austin and Ed Carr are great examples Andrew- but I'd just like to congratulate Paul Carpenter, whose exceptional trio of single vineyard, 2004 Mclaren Vale Shiraz based Hardys Tintara wines are some of the finest terroir driven Australian wines I've encountered. Anyone seriously interested in this topic should consider lining these 3 wines up together. Yalumba's made some good strides in this direction too….

Cheers,
Chris Plummer

Chris – no need to be sorry, passion is what draws all in, driving us to make comments on wine blogs in response to the ramblings of random strangers. Wine does that.

I think we all agree that the future of fine Australian wine revolves around the celebration of our world class vineyard resources.

As a commentator mentioned recently, how many English or American consumers realise that we have large plots of vineyards much older than those in (wines sentimental heartland) France, including Shiraz vines significantly older than those found in Hermitage?

geez,

what is my definition of terroir? well i think terroir looks at the natural conditions which influence the vine and these can then be split in to 3 areas – macro-climate, the region; meso-climate, the vineyard and micro-climate, which is like a row or an area with a specific soil make-up.
it is a combination then of another list of factors; rainfall, temperature – both night and day, aspect, spray programs and so on.
what makes a vineyard unique is the terroir, not the grape variety, and when you blend fruit from different vineyards, you are effectively nullifying that 'uniqueness'.
you can make chardonnay anywhere in the world, but you can only make montrachet in montrachet.

Tim

Well, geez, with all due respect Tim, I think you haven't thought hard enough about terroir at all. Sorry to bug you with a question. We exist on vastly different plains of thought so there will be no debate as there is obviously no common ground on which to have it.

cheers
j

Ok then JP. What is your definition of this entity we insist on labeling terroir?

Is it, as Tim is suggesting, a "sense of place" or characters defining the site from which the fruit originates? Can this include any unique climatic or geologic anomalies which set it apart from the surrounding area and, indeed anywhere else in the world? In addition to this, might it also include any unique viticultural and/or oenological techniques endemic to that region, vineyard or sub-site?

Is there something about it that he and I are both missing and you are not?

I agree wholeheartedly with Chris Plummer; it is essential that the Australian wine industry is not held to stylistic ransom by those who simply wish that it made wines more like the French! This notion of terroir is unique to the French industry and you rarely hear producers from Italy, Spain, Germany or anywhere else in the so-called 'Old World' using this term. It has become almost as big a buzz word in wine marketing as Organic or Bio-Dynamic, and for this reason producers should use it cautiously, if at all.

At the risk of sounding arrogant or absurd; in Australia, we make Australian wines. That is to say wines which are distinct from anywhere else in the world. It remains to be seen just which varieties will (with no small degree of irony!) become considered our "Grand Crus" but there is no doubt that as long as we remain a nation of creatively unrestricted wine producers, our ability to discover what these varieties are remains available to us.

Will

Australian wines are compared to those of France because, like it or not, the great wines and regions of France ARE our benchmark. They are Jefford's benchmark, Halliday's, Evans's, Hooke's and just about every winemaker in Australia's benchmark. It is naiive to believe otherwise.

That's not to say we can't have our own style. And I think if people read Jefford's recent work a bit more closely they'd realise that he is starting to understand that Australian styles have their own validity. He is here to write a book on great Australian vineyard sites, after all.

Just a note in response to Tim Cohen's original post, and i should say that I am a winemaker at Yarra Burn winery. The contract winemaking example that Tim described did indeed come about due to phylloxera – we would much prefer to make our wines at our own winery. As Tim would also know, 2008 was a very full on and compact vintage, and we were unable to get to his winery as often as we would have liked. However we had great faith in the winemaking team where Tim worked (two of the best winemakers in the Yarra), and we kept in regular contact. Tim was evidently not privy to these communications, or at the winery when we visited.
Tarring us with the 'big company not understanding terroir' brush is both insulting and untrue. Tim, if you ever wish to come out, have a taste and talk terroir, please call me at the winery on 9876 5885, you will be more than welcome.
Cheers,

I do not prefer to criticize a fellow Hubber but
your options are almost all fallacious. You could take a
short course on Diamonds.